William Desmond and John Vervaeke: Strong Transcendence, Plato, and the Between

Can transcendence still make philosophical sense after modernity?

John Vervaeke speaks with philosopher William Desmond about Platonism as a living tradition, the meaning of strong transcendence, and Desmond's philosophy of the metaxu: the between. The conversation builds from John's proposal that relevance realization and transjectivity are philosophically grounded in Desmond's ontological account of the between.

John begins by distinguishing modern psychological accounts of transcendence from the ancient and Platonic sense of strong transcendence. In this stronger sense, transcendence is not merely a better state of mind. It discloses truths that are otherwise unavailable and changes the knower's relation to reality. That claim challenges modern assumptions about flat ontology, the buffered self, representational cognition, and the fact-value split.

Desmond responds through Plato. He presents Plato not as a dry theorist of two worlds, but as a philosophical artist of the between: a thinker of mimesis, eros, mania, dialogue, singularity, and participatory transformation. Plato's dialogues are not ornamental containers for arguments; their drama, characters, and dialogical movement are part of the philosophy itself.

The later conversation opens into deep memory, imagination, eternity, possibility, God, Daoism, intercultural philosophy, pilgrimage, and the life-world. Desmond and Vervaeke converge on the need to move beyond the view from nowhere and return philosophy to transformative practice, embodied dwelling, and a richer contact with the sources of intelligibility.

Key Insights Strong transcendence has epistemological and ontological significance, not only psychological benefit. The metaxu, or between, names a porous relation before, beneath, between, and beyond modern dichotomies. Modernity's fact-value split risks producing default atheism or default nihilism. Participatory knowing offers an alternative to treating cognition as internal representation of an external world. Plato's dialogical form is integral to his philosophy; the drama cannot simply be stripped away to extract arguments. Mimesis involves relation between image and original without collapsing their difference. Eros and mania point to two directions of transcendence: from below upward and from above downward. Deep memory is a source of imagination and ontological depth, not merely storage of past facts. Possibility should not be reduced to logical possibility; living possibility points toward enabling power. Pilgrimage and theoria are linked: philosophical transformation requires being on the way, not merely observing from nowhere. Timestamps 00:00 Welcome and setup

01:00 Relevance realization and the philosophy of the between

02:00 Platonism as living tradition

02:40 The need for strong transcendence

03:50 Transcendence after modernity

04:40 William Desmond introduces his work

05:00 Between system and poetics