Persuasive Negotiation: Les Owen

Welcome to Episode 59 of The Incredible Machines podcast! In this thought-provoking conversation, Jon Oliff and Luke Holden sit down with Les Owen, a negotiation and persuasion specialist whose career has taken him from industrial relations and high-stakes trade union negotiations to advising some of the world’s largest companies.

Les reflects on working for PUTCO (the Public Utility Transport Corporation) during a defining period in South African history, studying Zulu before the rise of the black trade union movement and developing his negotiation skills alongside influential union leaders. He also shares his experience as a trustee of the Independent Mediation Service of South Africa, the organisation that later helped shape the CCMA.

He also discusses the difference between persuasion and manipulation, the role of power and fairness in negotiation, the lessons he learned from business failure, South Africa’s 1994 elections and decades of resolving conflict.

The conversation explores the psychology behind negotiation and persuasion, including how body language, colour, timing, seating and preparation can influence an interaction before anyone has presented an argument.

This episode is a must listen for leaders, business owners, salespeople and anyone who wants to communicate more effectively, navigate conflict and become a better persuader.    ⏱ Timestamped Overview

00:45 – Introduction to Les Owen, Psychology of Persuasion and 1976 Soweto uprising 03:19 – Studying Zulu and preparing for a changing South Africa 06:04 – The rise of black trade unions and Les’s first negotiation role 09:22 – Discovering a natural talent for negotiation and persuasion 13:05 – IMSA, international training and the foundation of the CCMA 18:25 – Helping to oversee the 1994 elections in Natal 27:09 – Using body language to influence expectations 35:36 – How clothing and colour affect a negotiation 42:16 – Why timing matters in negotiation 52:16 – We Were Always Here and the overlooked history of black inventors 59:09 – Why family negotiations can be the most difficult 1:05:09 – How language can influence the future we create 1:10:23 – Why people need to be right and seen positively 1:13:41 – The relationship between selling, negotiation and persuasion 1:19:10 – The grey area between persuasion and manipulation 1:28:25 – Cognitive biases and different interpretations of the same facts 1:32:21 – The difference between power and authority 1:41:30 – Nelson Mandela’s leadership and commitment to listening 1:51:05 – The three characteristics of a good negotiator    💬 Quote of the Episode

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” – Friedrich Nietzsche (one of Leslie Owen’s favourite quotes)    🧠 Related Campaign Example  Cremora’s “It’s Not Inside, It’s On Top” Advertisement: Les selected this classic South African advertisement because it captures the cooperative and competitive nature of relationships. It also demonstrates the value of using fewer words, communicating through tone and context and avoiding the instinct to tell someone directly that they are wrong.

Cremora’s “It’s Not Inside, It’s On Top” Advertisement: https://youtu.be/0_t15vNuXP0?si=fWlNvRrvyD7Eidvt

👣 Relevant Links & Mentions

Les Owens LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leslie-owen-b9a50526/

Owen, Adendorff & Associates Website: https://www.owenaden.com/

Purchase the We Are Always Here book via this link: wewerealwayshere.com