Gill Kernick on Grenfell - the disaster we still haven't learned from

When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?

Episode Summary

Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.

When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.

But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.

What you'll learn In this episode

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:

Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concludedThe shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the InquiryWhy disasters rarely have a single root causeThe hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn themThe importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulationWhy complexity requires different kinds of leadershipHow AI might help organisations learn lessons in real timeWhy hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary

00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters?

02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower

05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry

06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings